Mahmood Fazal
Sandi Sissel
Annie Sprinkle

Mahmood: This episode of the rising podcast contains references to sexual assault and domestic violence and may trigger distress to some listeners.

In this episode of the Rising Podcast, filmmaker Sandi Sissel speaks with performance artist Annie Sprinkle. When Annie Sprinkle was 18, she was working at the Plaza Cinema when a film called Deep Throat was playing. It was one of the first pornographic films to feature a plot, character development, and cinematic production values. The film was banned and the filmmakers were brought to trial for the promotion of obscene material. When Annie Sprinkle had to appear in court as a witness, she met and fell in love with Deep Throat's director, Gerard Damiano, and became his mistress.

The controversial film takes center stage in DeepThroat Drive-In, a Rising artwork devised by Sandi Sissel, Willoh Weiland , and James Brennan. Set in a drive-in cinema, Deep Throat Drive in journeys through Sandi’s forty-year career in journalism and film, examines misogyny tropes, the male gaze, and affirms non-binary and gender diverse bodies in cinema. This conversation between Annie Sprinkle and Sandi Sissel features excerpts from Sandi’s film Chicken Ranch.

Sandi: Are you having a Margherita Annie?

Annie: I am.

Sandi: Oh I am so jealous.

Annie: I find that lately, it relaxes me.

Sandi: You know what I am going to do, I’m going to join you and have a shot of Tequila.

Annie: Perfect, well cheers.

Sandi: Let me get a glass.

Sandi: So um, let me just say Annie I have thoroughly enjoyed my last couple of days of everything, Annie. It’s been so much fun, and I kind of think of you as a voice of pleasure in a troubled time.

Annie: Thank you, Sandy, I so enjoyed watching your film last night with Beth, my partner and you know, look, did your Wikipedia and learn more about your work and your few articles, and I’m so impressed with all you have done.

Sandi: Well, I think we both have great admiration for each other, and I think we are kind of women of a certain age, both of us Jewish, both of us moving to New York in 1973. I think our paths have crossed in more ways than we might have ever thought.

[Extract from Chicken Ranch film]

Female voice – Well, it would be very difficult for me to quote prices. I wouldn’t know what kind of party you wanted. You see we have so many different kind of parties, if you wanted the VIP room which we have the water bed, the jacuzzi, the passion chair which everybody really likes, the movies or if you just wanted to party in the ladies room. You would have your straight lay, half and half, sixty-nine, frappes and many many more. Now, you would have to negotiate with the lady for price, as well as party. You know like time, alright you want a certain party, how much time do you want with that party. So, I wouldn’t really know what kind of party you would want.

Annie: Your film chicken ranch? I have so many questions about that.

Sandi: Absolutely.

Annie: How the heck did you get in there? Did you like hire the place to let you come and film and how long did you film for?

Sandi: Well, my partner on the film, Nick Broomfield and I had decided that we wanted to do a film, so we went and we visited all the different legal brothels in Nevada, of which there are about 30 and given the fact that this is almost 30 years ago, most of the brothels wouldn't even let women in. They wouldn't even let me in the door, they would let Nick in the door. So that began to eliminate certain brothels and then we eventually made our way to the Chicken Ranch. We walked inside, we were welcomed and actually, Nick and I pretended to be a couple. It's not that we were trying to lie or anything, but we just didn't want there to be any kind of controversy whatsoever. Now, I will tell you honestly, that lie doesn't go very far in the brothel, because those women figured out pretty quick that we weren’t a couple, but we were kind of lucky because Walter, the owner of the brothel, ended up having to serve some time in jail.

So during the day, and some evenings, he was in jail, so we were left in the brothel with our cameras with friend, the madame, and we could kind of do what we wanted to do and Nick and I were both in our early 30s, we were not too different from the women in the brothel, so we actually made quite good friends with each other and we became very empathetic to their lives and their situations. I think they became very empathetic to our lives and our situation and we lived inside there for four months and you know Annie, it’s very hot in there they keep it very warm, because people don't have their clothes on in the brothel very much. You're right in the middle of the desert. Um, this was pre-aids, so nobody was doing safe sex, it was other than the fact that they were taking birth control pills and I'm sorry to say that several of those women have since passed away from AIDS. I cared very much about them. Nick cared very much about them. I think that in many ways, they were very sex-positive people. But they were in a position where they worked three weeks on and one week off, they worked for three weeks, then they had their period for one week, so they wouldn't work and then they come back and work for three weeks. So even though it was very positive in many ways, they were also still kind of working with a pimp.

[Extract from Chicken Ranch film]

Male voice: You know last week, you made almost two thousand dollars.

Female voice: I know.

Male voice: And this week, you the same height, you got the same colour eyes, you the same pretty girl as you was last week. So we have to find out maybe so I can help you and you can help yourself as to why you're not booking this week.

Female voice: I don’t know what it is.

Male voice: I don’t know either.

Sandi: When you were doing did you ever think about the male gaze or the female gaze because this is something fairly new for me to think about. When you started would you consider it the male gay’s when you were doing pornography?

Annie: Well, this is something feminists, probably professors, by the way. Yeah, there are some professors that are very uptight, and, you know, have issues with any kind of sex is not missionary position. What can I say? Okay, so they started talking about this thing, the male gaze and how harmful it was. Now, I always didn't like street harassment. When I would walk down the street, men would say things like nice tits baby or grab my ass. You know, in Italy, they used to pinch you and all that. I never liked that street harassment. I was very privileged and lucky as hell. I was never violently raped. I was, you know, I'm a middle-class white woman type person and I was in the sex industry by choice and I had other options, not all women do and they can be poor and struggling or drug-addicted or alcoholic or having real struggles and into horrible relationships and I never had any of that thankfully. I've had bumps in the road and bad days and all that, but I was, I have to say, very privileged, very lucky. Very, very, very lucky. I really, you know, that tarot card the fool child, I was kind of like that. Ignorance was bliss.

[Excerpt from Chicken Ranch film]

Female voice – He called me a cunt and he said he could buy just as many cunts as there is as me, in this whole fucking world. That’s exactly what he said, he said I don’t need you here Mandy I can buy as many cunts as you. I said that’s right Walter, because you’re the biggest fucking pimp in the whole world, and he says I wouldn’t doubt it.

Sandi: Well Annie, tell me when you started. How old were you and how did you get involved in the sex business?

Annie: I was a young hippie that moved to Arizona with my first boyfriend who was 26 he came up from Panama on his motorcycle, I'd have an excellent fabulous first sexual experience with Van who is darling you and a hippie coffee shop. He was a great guy and I like sex right away. My first sexual experience was on the beach on the equator in Panama with our masculine with the full moon, the stars and the ocean waves were full of plankton. It was absolutely magical, it was oral sex and later, six months or so later, he drove up to LA where I was looped back with my family and my family was cool and we were lovers for a while longer until I decided I needed to explore more about sex and very quickly ended up in a little massage parlour in Tucson. It was a trailer very much like the Nevada brothel, but smaller, smaller scale. There were three women on the ship. Some women I knew young woman my age 18 worked there and I thought it was just massage, but she, they were busy. They wanted me to come answer the phones, receptionist didn’t show up. So I thought I was just a horny masseuse because they got real busy and they need someone to give a massage, quote, quote, and I loved it. I liked having sex with total strangers in this amazing situation. I started making money, which for the first time and I was very interested in men and their fantasies and I loved men and I didn't get along so well with women, but I felt comfortable with sex workers.

[Excerpt from Chicken Ranch film]

Female Voice – Ok, Gerard, let me tell you a little bit about the VIP room, ok. It’s a room, called the VIP room, it has mirrors on the ceiling, x rated movies, a waterbed, a passion chair, drinks on the house, a sauna, a shower and jacuzzi, how does that sound?

Male voice: Ok

Female: Wonderful, yeah that sounds awesome.

Male voice: I’m just a poor boy,

Female voice: Oh I don’t believe you

Male voice: Just a poor truck driver

Female voice: Oh let me tell you how much

Male voice: Yeah tell me

Female voice: A thousand dollars

Male voice: ohhh I’m not too interested in that

Female voice: Not too interested

Male voice: No

Female voice: Ok let well, let me tell you a little bit of what else we have ok?

Male voice: Ok

Female voice: Everything else would be in here, ok we have a half and half which is a little bit of French and intercourse afterwards and we have a straight lay or a straight French, we have a sixty nine, we have Crème de menthe French, we have a hot towel massage, a bubble bath, which would you like, you can combine or just pick one.

Male voice: Ok what are the prices?

Sandi: The problem with things that we shot back in the 70s is that a lot of times it was shot on film and if the negative wasn't saved, and it was only saved on video, than the video is in such bad shape now, it's really difficult to have the archive, which is very, very sad. It's heartbreaking.

Annie: Yeah it’s heartbreaking there's no adult film, a refrigerator where people preserve these old films, it's really tragic!

Sandi: Can I ask you because were very curious about your experience working in a movie theatre in Tuscon, can you tell us about your job that you got there?

Annie: Yeah, just before I got a job in a brothel, a massage parlour in Tucson, I worked for about three months in the movie theatre where deep throat was playing.

Sandi: Did you see it?

Annie: I did and I'd never seen a pornographic movie before. I never imagined that people actually had sex on film because I thought this was something private. I was absolutely shocked and I was already interested in sex and I couldn't believe Linda Lovelace. I fell in love with her. She was amazing. I fell in love with Harry Reams, who was just hilarious and so I sold popcorn and sold tickets and it was a 24-hour theatre, there were lines around the blocks from the University of Arizona people to the dirty old mankind of guys, to the students, everybody was showing up for this film. They were raking in the dough, eventually it was shut down by the state police of Arizona and there was a trial and that's where I met Gerard Damiano, they called me as a witness.

Sandi: What kind of questions did they ask you?

Annie: Oh, did I see anybody pick up the film at the airport? Who was my boss? It was really about interstate trafficking of pornography at that point and they had to decide if Deep Throat was illegal or not and so that was a big trial and if Deep Throat had lost we wouldn't, we wouldn't have had the boom of pornography that we did in the 70s and the theatres would not have emerged.

Sandi: Sure, of course.

Annie: So by the way, I wanted to say thank you for being a professor. I have so much respect for educators and professors. With Deep Throat for example, if it wasn't for professors doing the real research, that fake research that the right-wing, religious fanatic, censorious feminists tried to shut it all down freedom of expression. It wasn't for professors. I don't think pornography would have become legal or that you know, because the claims against pornography was so outrageous. Like it leads to rape and murder every time someone watches it or anybody watches a porn film, they become violent, it just wasn't true.

[Extract from Chicken Ranch film]

Female voice 1 – Oh no
Female voice 2 – We don’t like to be treated disrespectful, if you want to treat us disrespectfully you can get up and you can head out the door
Male voice – Hey, that’s why I am here until my buddy comes out
Female voice 1 – Your buddy, is fine
Female voice 2 – You don’t have to wait for your buddy
Male voice – Ok, alright lets call it, I didn’t go for your price so well leave it at that, alright
Female voice 2 – Why don’t you just kind of keep quiet and we wont give you a hard time ok otherwise we will make you stay outside and wait for your friend
Male voice – I’ll, wait here it don’t matter
Female voice –Yes, it does matter

Annie: Somebody on the radio, called me a fat Jewish New Yorker, and Hitler would know what to do with me, with people like her and boy, did he get in trouble in the Jewish Defence League leapt to my defence and got the guy fired? I wasn't, I was mostly offended by the New Yorker part, you know, I was kind of like what, how dare you?

Sandi: Can I ask you what it was like when you first came to New York after seeing Deep Throat and how you got to New York and what it was like in those days and times square in the early 70s.

Annie: So when I was 18 and got to New York City, Damiano brought me in to be his mistress he was married, but I didn't know his wife. It didn't know his kids and he was a pornographer. So I thought, okay, this is all right.

Sandi: So this wasn’t a lead of adventure at all?

Annie: No, we were friends and I was so interested in filmmaking and so interested in sex, of course, I'm gonna end up in porn and I also learned from the trial that sex is political and you know that.

Sandi: Yes.

Annie: Sex is incredibly political in so many ways and we thought porn and Hollywood films were gonna merge and Hollywood films would become pornographic and then porn movies would become more like Hollywood movies. But it didn't go that way. It went the complete opposite. Porn became more just wall-to-wall sex and Hollywood didn't take to hardcore sex scenes very much, a few examples but.

Sandi: New York in the 70s and 80s was not entirely a safe place. I mean, but I mean now it's kind of a playground of the rich. But in those days New York was even a bit seedy which actually I like, I kind of miss that part of New York at this point:

Annie: Have you seen that Deuce from HBO?

Sandi: I have seen the Deuce, you know that James Franco was my student at NYU?

Annie: Oh my god. Fabulous! I bet you have a lot of amazing students up there.

Sandi: There were a lot of amazing ones. You had a lot of amazing students. Well, how similar was Time Square for you in those days to the way it’s portrayed in the Duece.

Annie: I spent a lot of time in Times Square with Damiano and making porn, that was the film district.

Sandi: Yeah.

Annie: That's where the filming of this building was and, you know, that's where you did your sound mix and you had your screening for the press and it was where all the filmmaking happened, including the porn film world, which you know, in those days the New York Times ran ads for the porn movies, you don't have that now. So I love Time Square, I loved it, I adored it, it was sexy, it was fun,it was exciting, I felt safe there. I could walk down 42nd Street and some guys say, oh, I saw your magazine spread when I was in prison, Annie you rock and I worked at the live sex show and on 42nd street, I mean Time Square was amazing. It was an adult sex playground and it was relatively pretty safe. For me, it was fun and everyone was having adventures. I would take people for tours there and hung out there a lot and I would do five shows a day set at the Show World Centre and I had a lot of downtime in between and I go into church or I'd go to a movie or did all kinds of hanging out down there. There were burlesque, the dance halls, it's all gone now.

Annie: Do you know the two great jokes about that? Which I would like to share with Australia? What's the difference? Between erotica and pornography?

Sandi: What?

Annie: In, erotica, you use a feather and in pornography you use the whole chicken and the other one is, what's the difference between erotica and pornography? The lighting!

Sandi: That I can understand. Tell me about women against pornography and not a love story, and how you became a pro-sex film feminist. Can you explain what that means?

Annie: When I was 18. Right? So I was making porn films. I was interested in film, interested in sex and around, I don’t know at some point, the anti-porn feminists started protesting, saying porn was harmful to women and porn creates violence and they were in Times Square holding signs and actually, they were on the corner showing women's I mean, it was so in your face, like the most violent, awful, fronting people with just like murderous, awful imagery, which really came from horror films and who knows what really bad, you know, scary movies. So they started giving tours, at Show World Centre, where I was doing live sex shows and burlesque and the anti-porn feminists started playing really dirty, and this term pro-sex feminist did not exist and sex-positive feminists became a term and we're like, okay, so I can be a feminist and I can be pro-sex, pro-feminist, pro-porn.

I've always said the answer to really bad porn is to make better porn. Yes, so I was part of just at the right time in place where we needed feminists pornography, and me and some friends set out to make some and what is that its pornography made by feminists, which could also be by men. By the way, there's plenty of great male feminists and trans-male feminists and it's, it was a very exciting time exploring the difference between erotica and pornography because I was one of the few out sex workers at porn. Women in porn a lot of them were not out they had double lives because there was no frickin internet, you could do porn movies, and your family wouldn't find out.

Sandi: Can people learn how to deep throat?

Annie: Absolutely, absolutely. I’m out of practice you know, I think you could, I un-learned it, I mean you can learn it and un-learn it. You have to be enthusiastic; you have to want it. You know if someone holds your head down, slap-em. You know, but if you want it you can do it. You know, it's all about desire and passion and one person's pleasures, another person's worst nightmare and vice versa, so each their own.

Mahmood: The Rising podcast is created by Litmus Media on the land of the Boon Wurrung and the Wurundjeri people. It’s produced by me, Mahmood Fazal. The associate producer and editor is Eugene Yang. You can listen at Litmus.Media or wherever you get your podcasts.

If anything from this episode has triggered distress please call 1800 RESPECT, that’s 1800 737 732 for confidential support.