Mont Icons

7: Ex-con David Obeda on the G-Fam prison gang and life as a 501 deportee

Episode Transcript

DO: David Obeda

MF: Mahmood Fazal

DX: Daniel Stewart

MF: In this episode of Mont Icons, we speak to former prisoner. David Obeda, about co-founding the G Fam prison gang.

All right. This is a really, really special episode we've got David Obeda from The Felon Show. talking to us today. David does really amazing work and really rare work in terms of his perspective on the carceral system in Victoria. Thank you so much for being on this show, David. Really appreciate it, man.

DO: Well, thanks, brother. Thank you for that. Yep. Good to be here, bro.

MF: So tell us about where you grew up, or when you move to Australia?

DO: I grew up in New Zealand bro. Grew up in Auckland. In a pretty normal upbringing, man. Pretty nothing really spectacular. Yeah, well, I used to get into a little trouble as a young man, which was why I moved to Australia, actually.

MF: Really? Is that common for for young kids that are playing up in New Zealand they get moved to Australia?

DO: Yeah, it actually is. Yeah, it's also all always around the parents as well. So a lot of people's parents move here are moved to Australia thinking that you know, this bit of money. It's a bit easier. So yeah, but usually people getting into trouble is the main reason they go to us. And you know, we sort of move over there. But, you know, obviously, there's a lot of other people with the same idea. So you end up getting there and there's just a bunch of kids, not a bunch, but you know, sometimes you can be around other kids who have also lived in New Zealand for the same reasons. So it's like you just end up sort of around the same people, I guess.

MF: And what areas were you in in Melbourne? We don't waste away or?

DO: Yeah, right. Yeah, yep. Sit down. Whistle I went to school there for a bit. You always around Dandenong, Springvale, Clayton, around that area. So, for me moving there from New Zealand, it was actually quite a culture shock really, when I went there. As I was just used to mainly being around other you know, Polynesians, and even though there are a lot of Polynesians, and Melbourne is also quite diverse. It's like a real melting pot, you know, when you get some Alvin because he's like, you know, a lot of Asian, you know, Vietnamese. Even, you know, European, you know, Middle East Arab, you know, Afghanistan, you know, Sudanese even. So these are all places I hadn't really heard of when I left. When I lived in New Zealand, you know what I mean? It was just, it was all new to me was a bit of a culture shock.

MF: And, yeah, I'm from Dandy as well. Afghan born and raised and I know what it's like trying to make ends meet down in the southeast. How'd you get caught up in the mix? Was it just trying to try to make a little money on the side? or How did you get involved just trying to get by?

DO: Yeah, that was that's those as a teenager it's like, well, you know, when I because I was homeless, you know, as a teenager moving to Melbourne because when I first went to Melbourne, I was living with my mom, but by the, by the time I got here at like 14,15, I got to Melbourne at 14,15 it's like I had already pretty much chosen my path at that point. So pretty much just left home. And um, yeah, man, just doing what you got to do to survive to put food in the stomach, man, you know. And then as time goes by, you just sort of get trapped in that day, and then you just sort of don't really know what else to do. So you just keep going, keep going down that path and then you know, eventually leads to prison and, you know, all of that.

MF: I know, from other podcasts you've been on that you you were involved in burglaries did that. How did that start for you? Because I know when I was growing up, it always started you know, you doing run throughs on drug dealers and then you just end up just breaking into everything and anything how’d it start for you though.

DO: Um, so that's how it started for me really, it was I mean, it just escalates really, from you know, breaking into cars with friends. You know, we were mainly stealing cars just to get around in and then we're still in cars to like transport goods from burglaries. But yeah, it's just around that circle of, you know, no one has money. We want to get high as well, we want to get drunk, you know. So that's really where turns into burglaries and even armed robberies started doing them. Yeah, basically just just to get high and have fun and and again, you know, putting food in the stomach. Yeah, so it just really escalated like that. And the people I was hanging around as well.

MF: Yeah, it all just kind of you just work off each other's energy a little bit.

DO: Yeah, that's exactly right.

MF: So, first time you get stuck in the system. When was that? And it was for a bunch of offences.

DO: Right.

MF: They all kind of just,yeah, so that was for?

DO: Yeah, that was for a range of offences, because I was getting bail, you know, committing offences like assaults, then getting bail, then committing burglaries And so getting bail. Not that they were very serious. I mean, there were a serious, but they weren't, if you know what I mean. So I kept getting bail. But um, like, the police had been asking me for ages, though, you know, like, the police hated me. You know, because the police hate people, they get away with stuff because like, up to that point, I went to the system. I mean, I was the only one out of the out of my group of friends that stayed out, that had managed to stay out. So the police had been on onto me for a while, you know, always like, they always used to pick me up when I was going to do burglaries and stuff, but I would never have anything on me. You know, I mean, in life, they would always just hate that, you know, so there was that, but then they finally got me here for a range of offences. And, yeah, I ended up going to mom's very youth detention when I was 19. And yeah, that was sort of my first taste of the system.

MF: What was that? Like?

DX: Can you tell us maybe like to kind of tell us that maybe the first day, you walked in kind of story?

DO: So walking through monster youth detention, it was like, there's a group of people as you walk in, obviously, you get taken through like reception. So I walked into the unit. To be honest, I was just looking for another like Islander or marry. So that was sort of my first instinct. And then I ended up seeing a guy from from the area from Danang who I actually didn't know so I didn't know him well. But I'd seen him around though. And so yeah, cuz in prison as the years go by, as always notice that that um, you see people from the outside that you'd normally you just seen them around the neighbourhood sort of thing and you just saw them around the area and in prison that sort of like arm on the say on the outside with him that I met on that first day. I probably would have never approached him or anything like that on the outside because we were in completely different circles and but then when we went when I was in when I went to monster and I saw him was sort of like Oh man, this is a familiar face they even thought I know. So then that and we ended up becoming quite close to you know, so we become became good friends. And but walking through it is but intimidating. You know, I was skinny as well. Most pretty small. So yeah, man, definitely anxiety because also before mom Spirit had come through the cells, you know, Dandenong cells and then so the magistrate in Melbourne.

MF: Dandy cells not a not a happy place.

DO: Especially what the police officers get down and Dandy.

MF: they got a pretty fierce reputation.

DO: Yeah, so coming through, they are sort of met some people that sort of, you know, they give you the the rundown of what it's like, and you know, sort of what to do and stuff.

MF: Who was that for you though? Who was that? I like, I like that old school kind of mentoring.

DO: Oh, that was just so in the police cells. I mean, it wasn't there for that long so there were older guys, I didn't know them well, though. But they just sort of told me while I was in there, you know, like, um, you know, just keep your head up, man. Like, it's not like they try and scare you or anything, but they do tell you, you know, you just got to stick up for yourself. Because, you know, once you slip something slide in, it just becomes constant, you know what I mean? And then people sort of prey in that, especially inside. So, but in regards to the first day at mom's router, actually wasn't too bad. Considering you know, like, it wasn't bad as and I didn't get into any fights but you know, it does suck being inside and it's your first time and you're not used to it. And, you know, you tell people you're doing life Nine months and they sort of look at you like, that's not that long. But at that time, I feel like that's ages, you know. But as the time goes by, you know, it ends up becoming that, you know, you got guys that are doing really long and then you do like five to 10 years and people say that's not that long in prison.

MF: Quick 10 Yeah.

DO: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

MF: So how long after that? Did you wind up in the in the adult prison? Because you are a couple months yet?

DO: Yeah. So I got out for like two months after that. And then I went straight back in brows, doing the same thing. As soon as I got out, just met up with the boys just automatically wanted to get on and get on the drugs and go make some money. So unfortunately, I wasn't there for long. I went back straight to the adult system this time. And I mean,it was really just the same thing really, you know what I mean? Just there was a lot older guys and because I had my co offender as well, who was with me, so he was like, he was a bit older than me as well. So he was already quite arm adjusted to the prison system. So he gave it so as soon as I went into prison in the yard, I was like, I didn't really have much to worry in terms of that, because they were already some pretty solid all in the boys that were on the art whom my coffin, the new as well. So it's like, you know, I walked in, and, you know, one of the boys, you know, grabbed my things and sort of like walking into myself sort of thing asked me if I needed anything. You know, so at least I did have that when I went to prison, sort of the guys around me.

MF: What's the what was the yard? Like? Just for anyone that's listening. That's all we just seen movies, you know? And now that's a thing with your perspective is so great is that, like, no one knows what the Melbourne no one's been able to see what the Melbourne systems really like, because so many movies except for like Chapo back in the day, or they don't let cameras inside. So know that painter? How was that? No, definitely.

DO: Also, um, when you get to the MAP. So obviously this reception, yes. So you've got like the office, but we sort of walked through off the bus. So you check it, so you're handcuffed, you walk out. And it's just basically a whole bunch of holding cells and you just sort of in a line and you got to do like medical tests and testing your mental health things like that. So that takes forever. So that takes at least half the day, if not all the day. Oh, by the time you get lit up into the prison, so you walk up the steps because there's like underground but and then you walk up the steps into the main I guess compound. And when you're walking in the map, you just walk out and then there's like a big concrete yard and it's surrounded by the units. So um, so it's packed. You know what I mean? When you walk in, there's a lot of people walking around. It is very disorientating, really like now that I think back to it. Because there are so many people walking around and you don't really know what's going on. Because you realise how disorientating it is later on, because later on as you get used to the prison system and how things are, I mean, there's always something happening, you know, there's always guys doing deals and whatnot. So we're at first, when you first go to prison, you don't see you can't see any of that, you know what I mean? You just see a whole bunch of people walking around. But then as you get adjusted to the prison system, then you start you can see all the moves being made and the sky talking to that guy, and you can sort of see everything but as a newcomer coming in, so that it's just a whole bunch of people. Not much is happening. Everyone's just walking around not doing anything. You know, that's what you think when you first go to prison. So yeah, that was sort of

MF: Yep, between between the MRC and was the first place that you got moved to, did you get shipped to Barwon or to Port Phillip?

DO: Now, so I went from that time I went to the maps to MRC. So the map the map, and Melbourne is just the assessment prison. So you'll only really go there for about a couple of days of that or a couple of weeks ending on your, your mental state and then from there, you will get shipped to eat. Well, at that time, you would only really go to MRC from them, the romancing now things have changed in the prison system now because it's so packed now that they're sort of putting remand prisoners in all different prisoners. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, bro. Yeah, bro support Philip now as well. So you're from the I went to MRC. Bro and I saw that was my I went to a there. So that was all my taste of proper prison, you know being around like older guys who do have influence so when I wouldn't say Marcy Agha made a lot of Muslims and people who had influence so that was sort of my first taste of that, you know, being around people that have influenced and do have a name and like, our respect what does that look like imprison Like what?

MF: How do you know? Or is it just someone someone wakes you up about that all like sort of how you would know

DO: Yeah, now people would just die people sort of word you up when you when you get there. Um, just so you know, you know, like, that's pretty much what would would happen with everyone really, when you sort of go away and you know, don't point out, you know, who are the guys that's, I guess, the heavies. You know, and so yeah, it's it's, it's, it's it's weird looking back now, because we you know, when I first went to prison, I was around those sort of guys, but I didn't know them. They didn't know me sort of thing. But, you know, as the years go by, and then I ended up getting to know a lot of them.

MF: Yeah, so how long did you spend in MRC?

DO: Ah, couple months, Max? A couple months, just until I got sentenced. And then, upon sentencing, I went to Mr. Our sorry, to our fallen, fallen correctional. out in sale there.

MF: Yeah. And what was that, like?

DO: I'm full on was good, man. The thing is, so, because the mentality I was in at that point, as well was sort of like, um, I wasn't looking at all about rehabilitation. You know what I mean? So, I wasn't in the mindset of rehabilitating. I wasn't in the mindset of staying out of trouble. So when I got to follow me, I was just like, um, you know, I wonder how long I'm gonna last here sort of thing. You know, so, yeah, that sounds like for me, so when I went there sort of just looking for trouble. You know. And in prison, you can find trouble if you want it. sort of just throw in that and ended up. They ended up being a big Riot while I was there, which I was involved in.

MF: And talk that through that day, man, tell us about how that how that happened. What happened that morning? And what was it about?

DO: Yeah, so all well, that morning, it wasn't even on the cards that anything. It was sort of just like on another day. But basically, it was over a funeral, though. So a couple of boys weren't allowed to go to this funeral. And they were guarded on it. And yeah, that basically, that's what kicked it off. That was the sparkpoint. So we all got together, we actually walked down to like the main plaza bit, which was like, we're like the main offices, sort of are located. And we went down there a whole bunch of us and is this just on. Yeah, mainly, mainly Islanders. We were we weren't on all in the same unit, though. But we were because we had we were leaving the gym. That's why we're out there like that. So we're all at the gym. And then we went from there. And now it was majority were islanders here, but there were a couple other boys couple Middle Eastern boys and what like why, I guess Australian. But yeah, mainly Islanders. And it just escalated very quick, man. And then yeah, we just just ended up being a big brawl between us in the offices. And it was like a movie over just like a movie man. People getting beat up all over the place and officers on the ground. And yeah, so big, big, big melee, pretty much.

MF: And did you get slotted for that?

DO: Yeah, bro. Yep. So that was that was when I went to Berlin.

MF: Right and this is so you you were at bar when you went straight to Supermax.

DO: So yeah, bro. Yep. So Malaluka.

MF: Yeah, right. And that I mean, for those that are listening, going to Malaluka at the age of 20 right? Yeah, it's pretty fucking that's pretty hectic man. How long how long we ever or maybe to maybe talk a bit about the regime. Like what what that unit actually is and what you what your what what you aren't allowed to do because what you are allowed to do fuck all.

DO: Yeah. So so from from following, we got escorted straight to bow and straight away, straight to Malaluka. So basically what Malaluka is, especially at that time, so they've built another secure unit there, which is like the highest now, but at that time, Malaluka was like, pretty much the highest security. So basically, what that is, is you've just got pretty much the most dangerous people in the state, you know, what corrections considers the most dangerous people in the state of Victoria. So I went, I went there. At 20. I had actually I'd heard of that unit. So it wasn't like, it was intimidating. Because when you get there, it's sort of like, it's all concrete. You don't, you can't see really much because all you see is just those two everywhere. It's sort of, it's hard to explain it. But the regimes basically, as you can't, you don't leave your cell you do get walk to a shower, every now and then. But to even get to the shower, you know, you've got to be shackled up. There's like six offices around you surrounding you. And it's just a little walk to the shower, you know, but they just need all of that. Even because to get your out of your cell there, they say your run out yard is at the back of your cell. So your cell has your main cell door. And then there's a set door at the back, which leads out into like a, they call it a truck pin. And that's basically just the concrete walls and floor, where you get your hour out a day.

MF: Is that with someone else or just on your own?

DO: No, just on your own, just on your own. In those situations, you can't even really see anyone because that's the weird thing about being in that so in in those sort of units, you can still talk to people by your sword, I got a shout out like to your next door neighbours. And so you can still talk like it does get noisy because there's a lot of talking. But you're yelling, there's a lot of yelling. But it's weird because you can actually build up relationships in there. You know what I mean? I say what's your next door neighbours and stuff because these have been at the doors they sort of just slide the door and you can talk but a lot of the times you you know I've I've spoken to people in there for like over six months and you haven't even seen them for like you don't even don't even you don't even know what they look like but you know you're talking right you're having a laugh because when you're in there bro you do got it. You know it does help talk in other people. So you actually do get to know people you have a laugh of people and then sometimes you see them and then when you actually do see them you're just like oh you don't look like how I thought you'd look like so yeah, but so I went to melaleuca got my taste there and there's a camera in the cell as well very nice. That's how so all our policies in the Supermax for about 13 months for over a year so it was a serious Riot you know and so the corrections that consider that really serious incident.

DX: Can you describe the cell that you're in kind of to give people a picture where he spent 13 months like how big was that kind of what was did you have to sit on the walls like?

DO: There's just basically a bathroom a we can't open the door a life sized bathroom like our because it's so hard to explain as well bro because the thing is you've got like because even in Supermax there's levels inside there as well. And you can get shipped to different parts and so like Malaluka for example that's it's it's four different units so it's one unit but it's broken into four sections there's levels inside there as well but yeah, overall it's pretty much the same bro just a small cell steel toilet I mean when you start using normal toilets out here man it's such a difference like it's such a you forget how should it is sitting on a steel toilet until you actually get out and use a normal one just ah lack of sleep here I can almost fall asleep now. But so yeah, sorry, what was the question again? Sorry.

MF: Oh, wait what what your cell looked like?

DO: Yeah, yes. So yeah, basically you're steel toilet bro. Steel sink and just block where the mattress goes.

MF: Man that's heavy. How do you? I mean, my first question, when I think about that is imagine being locked, like you said in a bathroom for 13 months? How do you stay sane, like, in your 20s? How did you train your mind to, to fucking build a fort and deal with this shit?

DO: For it, so? Because the thing is you actually do get used to it in there, you know what I mean? So that's another unfortunate thing. Really, you know what I mean? Like, you just get used to it eventually. And like, I've seen people that don't even want to leave solitary, bro. You know what I mean? Like, this guy's this guy's this being used down there, bro. You know what I mean? And they just because he gets so you adjust your mind so that they're when you're actually around people, you're just like, you know, I mean, but for me when I first went to Malaluka, like, I was still in the head miles, bro. You know, I was just constantly minds working, you know, thinking about the outside man thinking about my family. So it is hard for it sucks. But there's nothing you can do about it. You know what I mean? That's just the thing, you just, you've got no choice but to get used to it. You know, either. That'll go crazy, which people do as well. You know, a lot of people go crazy under those conditions. Like I've seen a lot of people go cuckoo and they're sad. Really? You know, the mean is it's it sucks to see but.

MF: And oh, it's just like, is it gradual? Like you slowly feel like they're starting to lose their mind? Or does it just happen?

DO: It it. Like some people just go in there and just start losing it straightaway ages from those sort of conditions, but they're usually people that are already suffering quite badly from mental illness. For them to go like that. So. But when you get people that are sort of you think they're just normal, and then they they just start going coo-coo. You know, that takes a while, you know, I mean, it sort of takes a while. You know, I had a good night that, um, you know, real normal when we first went in, but then after about a year because he was he went to the slot for the same reason as I did. So we both went down there for the riot. About after about not even a year, about six months, it was just Yeah, he lost that. You started yelling in his cell all the time and even yelling at me alone, he just completely lost the day. That was about after six months, you know, solitary by Yeah, I guess it depends on the level they're on when they get there. You know, like, like I said, people that are already suffering pretty bad from you know, whatever mental illness. You know, as soon as they get to the slaughter, they're just, you know, because you've just got yourself there, you know what I mean? So if, you know, if you do have a mental illness, it's gonna kick off 100 times worse, you know, because now you've got no TV, nothing to take your mind off anything. You just got to sit with your thoughts, you know?

MF: Yeah, that's, that's dark man. You think that you know, as an institution and when the prison sees and knows about people who are obviously suffering from serious mental illness that they will take them out of that environment away from the other mainstream population in my art. And then some of these dudes are messed up. They're walking around the yard with knives like?

DO: Yeah, it's so messed up man. Like, you know, I've discussed things like this on my podcast you know about people it had just helped the whole mental health thing is dealt with in prison and a like a lot of those guys that were in Supermax and all of those violent guys that I was around. Like, in my head, I'm just like, like this, that just doesn't make sense. Like, they should be treated as patients, you know what I mean? Like they're obviously not all there. Like when you've got you know, schizophrenic people lashing out at offices. Like, it's because they've been kept in solitary confinement in the worst conditions. I mean, what what can you possibly expect from someone like that, you know, but to lash out, but that they just don't look at it like that, you know, a lot of the officers in there they just used to get pissed off at these prisoners for not doing what they're telling them when they obviously full blown schizophrenic, you know what I mean? And that just doesn't make sense. Like, I've seen them I've seen I've seen offices toensing prisoners, you know, like he's, you do see that a lot. You know, the, you know, taunting prisoners from outside the wall and, you know, trying to egg on the, you know, egg on the you know, the the the prison You know, trying to egg them on and making it worse for them. And you know, it's it's, it's messed up, man.

MF: So, at what point do you and your boys decided to clique up under the G Fam banner? Was that was that because there wasn't a united islander a thing already happening in the prisons? Or was there?

DO: Um, yeah, it was there also, like G Fam got started around that time. Around that time I forget Well, actually before then. So it was full of luck. So hard to explain it because at the start, we didn't intend it to be what it ended up becoming, you know what I mean? So, really, it was just like a group of us guys. Yeah, basically clicking up, bro, you know what I mean? Because, you know, when you're in the prison yard, the guy, the people usually controlling everything are the ones bringing in the drugs, you know, that's usually how it works. So when you're in a position, like me and my mates where we can't do that, you know what I mean? Because we're not, you know, we don't have the means to be able to call people on the outside and, you know, get large amount of drugs put wherever, you know, I mean, so that, I guess that was a large factor of why we ended up clicking up just to it just as a power thing, I guess. And I'm just having more power to do things behind the walls, if you get what I mean. Because like I said, we you know, we don't have access to money or drugs on the outside, or we can do things like that. And so when it's like that, you sort of got a clique up in jail and sort of bring the violence side to it.

MF: And it's like, trying to chase any little bit of freedom that you can, like, whether it's just getting off your head for a night or whatever, it's like,

DO: Yeah, oh, that's true. Yeah, 'cause I mean, it's no secret right now, like drugs and prisoners, huge, bro. You know what I mean? Like a majority of the prisoners are getting on it. You know? Especially because it's just that free. It just gives you that feeling of freedom. It kills the time as well, you know what I mean? Because when you are sort of doing that sort of stuff in prison, it's like, you're always busy. Like, it's crazy, how it's crazy, how busy you can actually get in there. Because you're always like, you know, making calls, making sure this guy's doing that. And that guy's doing this. And then, you know, you might see other people start talking, like, why are they talking? So then you've got to go slow it down while I was happening, and you got to keep everything on, you know, because it gets to the point where, you know, if you're in the unit and people are bringing drugs in, then you don't know about it. Like, that's a big issue.

MF: Really? Yeah.

DO: Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, if you've got enough influence, and power and the people around, you would get to that point, as well, where you know, when other people start bringing in stuff, especially secretly and are not telling anyone, then it does become a huge issue. Because, really, if they got to bring stuff and they'd have to pay rent, bro, you know what I mean?

MF: So what's how, how long did it get before you G Fam created that kind of influence on the yard? Because it didn't work out a while.

DO: Yeah, bro. Yeah. So it does, it does take a while. Right? So it took a couple years. Especially for it to actually be a thing where it was like, because at first it's like, if we're together on the yard and stuff, it's like, yeah, we've got influence but if we're not there, or if there's only like one member it's not as much influence so to get it to the point where if there was even just one member in the unit he'll still you know, have a lot of influence that takes the cup took a couple of years, you know that took it also takes you know, guys doing a lot of violence stuff. Yeah, mainly comes with that a guy just committing violent acts.

MF: Even when they’re one out.

DO: Yeah, bro. Yeah. So especially if they want out, you know, especially. So, yeah, that takes a while man took a while takes couple years.

MF: Yeah. And, dude, did you find that it was bringing together a lot of Islander boys because and was that kind of the underlying another underlying factor or was it mainly just to make money and get buy in? Because I'm always interested in the rice thing in prison, like how does that happen? How did why do humans like instinctively just, you know, default to that when they're when they're in that environment?

DO: Like with regards to that, I think in prison, why the main, the main reason behind that would be is because when you go to prison, you've got all these guys from all over the state. Most of the time, it's unlikely that you're going to know a whole bunch of people, you know, if it's your first time, so it's like, you really look for things to relate to and others. And in prison, I guess the main one that would that would boil down to is race, you know. So when you see that someone's your same nationality, you know what I mean? Obviously, you're gonna, if you don't know anyone, you know what I mean. And you see people that are your own race, they're pretty much the people you're going to be gravitating towards, because then you've got that common ground, at least of you know, being the same nationality. So I think that's what I think that's mainly why race ends up being brought up in prison, because, yeah, you know, it just it gives you that common ground off the bat. When you don't know anyone. It's sort of like, Oh, well, you're from New Zealand. Oh, well, so we're from New Zealand, you know, and then you sort of cling on to that, you know, especially as a new prisoner, you're still like clinging on to me? Oh, yes. You know, because I know a lot of Ireland is in prison that sort of started hanging around Ireland is in prison, but on the outside, they never hung around Ireland has never kicked it with Ireland does Polish just when you go to prison. It's like, that's that common ground? You know, I mean, if you don't know anyone you thought of that's the biggest one. But I'm sorry, what was your other question?

MF: Were in regards to G Fam. Like, growing that momentum?

DO: To be honest, I wouldn't really say it brought all in this together. Really? Now, well, the thing is, I mean, so when we are at first it did, yeah. But I wouldn't say really well, because islanders were sort of already together. Anyway, before we came g Flynn, you know, so even when I first went into prison, you know, islanders were sort of hanging around Islanders. But well, because the thing is, bro like it well, this is for me myself anyway, like, so with people that wanted to join g fam, it's like, because, like, for me, I actually never recruited anyone, by all means. I never really recruited anyone to join. Only because it's like, because the thing is, even though it is a race thing, and we are proud to be Islanders. I mean, realistically, it is a prison gang. You know,

MF: So what does that mean? For people that don't know?

DO: So basically, it's like, oh, because of the thing is that can be a little bit cutthroat, bro. You know what I mean? So it's like, because for me, while we never really recruited anyone was because it's like, for once you make that choice that you want to join, it's like, you know, like, say if something was to happen and is someone that needs to be taken out? I mean, you're gonna pretty much have to go do that, you know what I mean? Like, but then if you don't want to go do that, then it's, you know what I mean, then, then then it's an issue for us now, you know what I mean? Because it's like, well, if you don't want to do that, then you know, you could possibly end up getting taken out, you know what I mean? Because it's like, it just really boils down to that you know, that it is it is a prison gang and it is prison. You know what I mean? But um.

MF: What do you think where do you think that mentality comes from like that that survival instinct and those kind of cutthroat rules like?

DO: Our bro because the thing is, I mean, you know, the thing is, so for me, man, I've come a long way. You know? I've come a long way now. And now I realise you know a lot of things that I didn't before realise the brutality of that life you know, which I didn't really before bonus because the thing is the majority of the boys are pretty violent. You know what I mean? pretty violent, pretty violent guys. That don't have much of a heart for that I'm really you know, when it comes to the boys in that year this mad love but to anyone else is sort of like just completely ruthless, bro. You know what I mean? So a lot of the guys that I started the crew with, you know, are ruthless guys, bro. They don't really. Yeah, right. They don't really have heart for failed missions. And you know, because a lot of the guys are people that have grown up in the system. You know what I mean? They'll spend majority of their time Behind Bars, they don't know much about what's going on out here, bro. And they don't really care either. You know the means because it's so complex, bro because the thing is a lot of people can go to prison. I say as an Islander, if you come into prison or sort of like, are you bro will look after you, you know the mean will give you what you need and stuff. But then it's a lot of people get into the drugs for you know what I mean? So a lot of the boys want to start getting high and you know start doing things like that. But then when it comes to that for it's like you get told off the bat like bro, if you're gonna start getting involved in drugs, that's a different ballgame. You know what I mean? Like, you just Yes, just because that's what people sucks most people in bro is the drug. You know, if it wasn't for the drugs, they'll stay out of jail, but they want to get high. So then you got to get involved with all that all that comes of that. But because some people can come to the unit, and they can get looked after, bro, you know what I mean? Like when I did I got looked after I got given everything and stuff. But then it's just a very when the drugs get involved in it becomes tricky. And then it's like people can join, because want to join because it's like, oh yeah, I get looked after you know what I mean? Like, when you're when you're with the boys and that is like you get drugs and you get all of that and you get everything first. But then when it comes to actually doing something for all of that, then some people can stick it in can back out, you know, Dominus be like Oh, I didn't know that was gonna involve me having to do anything and go to solitary. You know what I mean? So it's like, that's why people that's why off the bat. I never used to get anyone to join or anything like that. Because they're very just creates complications where it's sort of hard to explain, but yeah, just creates complications.

MF: Yeah, that's, I mean, I feel like it's a bit you were young when you'd made the decisions up. Do you think it's a young young person mentality that thing like being able to be that ruthless in that heartless? And do you think it's something that you might grow out of in time?

DO: Yeah, bro, like, um, it's definitely something you can grow, grow out over time. 100%. But it also depends on safe, you know, how long is how long the inmates doing? You know what I mean? So a lot of the boys, some of the boys are doing long sentences. So for them, it's like, there's no real point in changing. You know what I mean? Like, if I'm already doing double digits, it's like, what's this? You know, that's how a lot of the boys look at it that this is my life here in prison. And there's no thoughts of getting out, you know?

MF: Yeah, and I guess they just gonna have to make do with the situation at hand. They've been told I just try my situation.

DO: Yeah, yeah. And you know what the boys in the gang the best situation? Pretty much is more power, you know, to remember. Yeah.

MF: Yeah. And it's a it's a spin out. I just did when When was the first time where was there a moment when G Fam got really tested in the in the early days? where, you know, there were some other big crews or you don't have to mention the names but actually put us to the test.

DO: Ah, yeah, bro. Yeah, yep, definitely. There were other other crews n that. Yeah, won’t name names. But yeah, they were other crews and stuff. But it wasn't really that there were threats of what gfm was gonna do. It was more just basically, it's gonna be war. You know what I mean?

MF: How does that war kick off?

DO: It's always boils down to drugs again. Yeah, basically, everything in prison, any sort of stylesheet or anything like that, even when they say in the newspaper is gang related and all of that. Usually it just comes down to drugs, right. I mean, like, because drugs brings people together as well. You know what I mean? Like, we've had moments with other gangs that we sold a piece that out, sort of because there were drugs for you know what I mean? So we sold a piece in it out because everyone's eating for thing. But then when something messes up, then it's like,

MF: is it that they want yours? Or you want this?

DO: Yeah, very pretty much. Because I guess how it would work. You know, rough outlay is like the people are bringing in Drugs, if these two different groups, usually they would also help each other out as well. So that if it got to the point where one groups line got smashed, and they couldn't bring anything more in than they can still get through that other group. That's how it usually works in prison. You know what I mean? So even though groups might be sort of beefing it's saying that they're beefing it behind the scenes, though, you know, I mean, there could be little deals going down here and there mainly between the leaders though you know what I mean? So not the foot soldiers, the foot soldiers wouldn't really know about that but between the leaders and stuff, they will be you know, things movements going back and forth. So that's what it's usually over bro. So especially say if a group is already in control and then you've got another group that comes init's like because if there are other groups still controlling everything is you know a lot of the times they are the group's not gonna back down either. So then that's when things get violent you know what I mean? Because basically in prison everybody wants to get on row everybody wants to get on man and then NF T's a group of people that's getting on and then no one else is getting on it's going to create dramas for me like there's no way there's no two ways around it bro like

MF: I know on the surface well immediate reports that people look at what happens in prison and straightaway boil it down to auto race issue like yeah, it's like a fam it's someone else and the different races they straightaway say, Oh, yeah, races.

DO: Yeah, yeah, well, because there's multiple reasons for that. First, they don't want people knowing there's mass amounts of drugs and right yeah, even though most people already know anyway, but it's also because you know, most of the time the media doesn't even know what's going on. I mean, so they could bury most of the time the officers don't even know what's going on bro. You know what I mean? Most of the officers down at the bottom and that don't know what the hell's going on. And when you got Intel they know everything you know in prison like that. They know bloody everything. Yeah, I mean there's nothing that they don't know drugs whatever. You know what I mean? There's absolutely nothing that because you know I've been in the system right now how corrupt it is on our corrupts come with offices. And I mean, at the end of the day, the officers only give a shit when they're not being told. I mean, like, they they'll let other they'll let whatever happen as long as they're being told what's happening. You know, I mean, that's that's all they care about.

DX: Can you talk a little bit about about what happened after Malaluka kind of returning to that journey of yours like so 13 months in Malaluka and what was what was next?

DO: Well I actually ended up getting out bro so I got released again and yeah same thing again bro got out for like a month or two and went straight back and it was basically just business as usual man when as soon as I come back I was like all the boys were there waiting for me and I'd when I went back that time that was really when jiefang really pushed into becoming what it is now.

MF: Was that in Barwon?

DO: Now when I got out I came back and I went to port for look and I did my my four and a half years at Port Phillip.

MF: Were you in scub north or south?

DO: I wouldn't have been the every unit that fulfil that role in that and yeah now because when I went back Brett I wouldn't let me anywhere else right.

MF: Yeah.

DO: I basically did all my time at Port Phillip but half of it in solitary because they got they got a Supermax unit portfolio so yeah be a very scarb north scarb south.

MF: Talk a bit a little bit about that and why they call it the Bronx.

DO: Scarb north and south, it’s different now but um, that there are pretty much the only units that didn't have cameras, bro. So that was a lot of reason why a lot of shit goes down in that unit. Seen riots in that unit. When I was there, someone got killed in Scarb north.

MF: Fuck. What was that?

DO: When that guy died? Yeah, now I was pretty full on man. Really. They didn't even catch the guys that done it. So yeah, no, that was pretty full on. But yeah, it wasn't surprising that it happened really. But yeah, so that was Yeah, so Scott north and Scott self that's sort of the Bronx. They're sort of separated from the rest of the prison as well. This is when I was there. A I heard Paul Phillips changed a lot now. This is changing. tapes now so they have I think all the units are all segregated they're at portfolio now and they're starting to segregate between race now. Yeah, how many prison systems need to get paid up? only get worse.

MF: Yeah that's that's interesting that they have that going back to segregating by by race.

DO: No man like me. Yeah, my mates who are at Port Phillip are just like it’s completely changed now that it's all fenced off now because they used to be a little bit of mingling between units before like down at the gym and things like that. But yeah, now now it's all fenced off now. Yeah, I heard it's gone real crap.

MF: Yeah, so so what what did Where did you go from there was that when you im port Philip you're trying to really bolster G Fam as a crew? Yeah.

DO: So yeah, when I went back to prison bro was just straight straight back business as usual bro. trafficking drugs. Getting caught crap trafficking drugs all the time.

MF: How much does it go for? When are we talking bupe or?

DO: A strip of up in prison can go anywhere from 100 to $200, bro.

MF: Fuck.

DO: Like that's a that's a big. I mean, I don't know how much the strip costs on the outside. But it's like, I mean, that pack doesn't cost that much. But yeah, and I every every stripping, is that worth 100 to $200. And people pay that all day, bro.

MF: And people cut that up too, right?

DO: Yeah, now yes, that gets cut up and installed into deals. So it's like a little square deal for like 20 bucks. But yeah, that whole strip. So an eight MC strip would make a hot sir for 100 bucks. Yeah, the $20 squares for like canteen and stuff.But yeah. It's actually amazing how much how much they were from prisoner. Yeah, like 'cause How much? It's addictive as well.

MF: How much would that pack end up making you if you got 'cause how many strips in a pack in it?

DO: Oh, well, because the thing is you get there's only one strip or one pack. You can get like the bundles, you know, because I'm not sure actually how it works on the outside. But I think they just get given, like takeaways or something or something like that. But I know I mean, it's only like a couple of dollars. You know, for like a week's worth. Like, yeah, one of those little little eight Meg strips in prison is cost 100 bucks. And the thing is, it's addictive as well, you know, I mean, so.

MF: That's a pharmaceutical drug man.

DO: Yeah, right. So it's like, um, yeah, people hang for browsing. People spend so much money on their stuff. their family's money is wrong. But because I've been hooked on it as well, but I've been on the beaut. I've been hooked on it. Luckily, I didn't have to pay for it, though. You know, but when you see people that doors like.

MF: I was speaking to a guy who was locked up when it was first introduced in New South Wales. And yet, he said, You know, they introduced it to get people off the smack because they were sharing needles. On the odd. Yeah, because they want to see, yeah, but then they did it to curb the Hep C among the few inmates that were actually involved in taking heroin, but then when they introduced BJU it the whole prison just got on it. So yeah, it's like take trying to minimise one problem and then you just introduced this fucking huge issue and put all these opiates and then when they got out, they couldn't get the bupe so they just got on smack and so it just created this organ.

DO: For the whole methadone. How it works in Australian prisons is just doesn't make sense for me like if they said that that's the reason they introduced that i mean i doubt it you know, I mean because it makes more problems then it creates more problems you know what I mean? Seriously Have you pray you know cuz Yeah, now you see if some people go in straight as bro and then end up hooked on the view because yeah, it is it does get addictive by and then especially in prison because you're bored it's like you're hanging out even more you know so um yeah, I've seen heaps of people you walk in not not doing any drugs nothing like that then end up on the beat bro and then end up getting out for the year burn the smack you know like yeah, cuz even for me, bro when I started trying pupae, and that allowed me to smoking heroin in jail and you know, start doing that I even took methadone a couple times in prison. I was never on a bar. Try to you know, bro when you see people that's on like 30 mils at least of methadone every day I mean what that does to the body fat.

MF: How did you break that cycle then?

DO: Like sort of the whole cycle?

MF: Like yeah or yeah well bro what 'cause you said like when you when you join a gang like this you're in a full life and you got to expect to spend the rest of your life How did you What happened then and how did you how did you break that?

DO: In regards to that so I am pretty fortunate you know what I mean? So the thing is if if it's really messed up or really because well it's different for me because I was one of the founders were you know what I mean? So I was there right at the start and so when I did want to walk away Don't get me wrong but it hasn't been all all goods you know what I mean? It has been tough bro walking away from that life I have fallen out with people not everyone but I have fallen out with certain people and that just comes with forever that just comes with being in a gang and leaving by ear like I said bro it's just it's I'm very I'm pretty fortunate man. You know what I mean? Yeah, mainly because I was there from the start you know there have been other people that wanted to leave in prison burn it didn't go down smooth you know even for me, bro To be honest, you know if anyone had a wanted to leave while I was still doing the stuff and if I had heard that they wanted to leave I wouldn't have been all good, bro. You know, I mean, what would have probably ended up ended violently when I was in that mind state before. So it is trippy to think back on it but like for me when I sort of started realising it was actually a relationship where you know what I mean? So there was a woman involved and while I was in prison, and she really opened my eyes to a lot of shit. And fuck I just realised that this wasn't it for me anymore. I didn't want to didn't want prison and all of that. So um Yeah, I'd sort of just slowly started stepping back sort of relinquishing my power as well. You know what I mean that I had Yeah, again, bird is just very blessed bird in a way you know what I mean? Because Yeah, bro, like I wouldn't To be honest, I wouldn't be as easy for another member to do what I'm doing. You know what I mean? especially one that wasn't there from the start you know which a lot are now you know, most of the boys went there from the start now.

MF: Was it lucky for you? As well as meeting this girl you also really got into reading to write.

DO: oeah, now Oh, man. Oh, yeah, sure, bro. Even when I was doing the G Fam thing and in Supermax for that I was always huge on knowledge, always big on that. Yeah, bro when I was in Supermax that's all I used to do, bro is just read.

MF: Yeah, and I remember you saying that you preferred it because it was like using your mind's eye to imagine things Yes.

DO: That's it. Yeah, that's I was just gonna say yeah, but it's just yeah, no brainwashing you know when you're reading the book is just yeah, your mind's eye and I mean, reading got me through bro. Reading definitely got not got me through I used to read like, you know, two novels a week. Sometimes real thick ones too. I mean, I've read the whole game of thrones series like three or four, three or four times for every book you know, I love that book. Even Hunger Games bro, I read all the Hunger Games, read all the Maze Runner books is always always big on knowledge bro even a lot of the A lot of them are mates you're still in prison who are still in the gang big readers, you know the love reading love love educating ourselves and things like that especially to the system bro you know so that was another reason why the officers hated us because we always used to like you know would always be like in the rulebook like couple 100 pages bro just read the whole thing. You know, just so we know our rights as prisoners the rights of as you know because I mean with police officers police police officers hate people that know the law, bro. They're nothing does they? I mean, they love people that say fuck the police and do heaps of stupid shit but, They love people like that for you know what I mean. But when it comes to people that know the law, it just annoys them. So we're always big on, you know, education and things like that. But, you know, in regards with the boys, like I said, you know, a lot of them have grown up in the system. And so it's hard for them to break that side of it hey.

MF: I’m also interested in their spiritual side of G Fam. Like, is there a bit of a spiritual element to it as well?

DO: Oh, yeah. In regards to culture, yeah 100%, you know, I mean, we would always sort of, you know, bring that into it. Because the thing is, we're not all Islanders bro, you know, so G Fam. But yeah, now we have, there's a couple African boys, even Middle East and not many, but there's a couple but they mainly the sort of guys that are have grown up around Islanders as though you know, I mean, like, they've mainly grown up around us, and we known them for ages. But, um, yeah, I wouldn't really put much into the spiritual side of it, though. You know, there is a little bit but yeah.

DX: Can you talk a little about your journey from that Port Phillip stint to where you are now?

DO: Yeah. So like I said, bro, you know, there's formed a relationship. So let the guard down a bit, let the armour, come down a bit, and realise that there is a lot more. The thing is this relationship where she actually made quite a lot to me, bro. So it was a big, big event for me. But that's what it usually takes, you know, something big. But yeah, so it was sort of with her. And then when I got released from prison, because I was being deported as well, back here to New Zealand, so I was like, What am I gonna do Really? Well, when I came out of prison, I knew that I wasn't going back for, you know, because the thing is, with that relationship to it didn't end up didn't end well. And I was still in prison. So, I was in a real dark headspace for over like, the last six months of my sentence. But, you know, suicidal, bro, you know, trying to end it bro, you know, there are certain nights where I tried to end up man but

MF: Fuck so that you that was even a tougher battle for you than Malaluka.

DO: Now that was tougher than anything else.

MF: Why do you think that was?

DO: I let my guard down very, you know, sort of I had feelings in that. Because I really opened my eyes as I realised that Fuck this. You know, prison is fucked, you know, I mean, because up to that point, I was just like a prison. You know, this is my home sort of thing. But then when you get that love in your heart, and all of that, then you know you want to get out. So when it didn't end well brows like shit. You know, I was gutted. And yeah, very suicidal thoughts, man, you know, wanting to end that. I'm trying to end it. Couldn't get couldn't work out. You know, couldn't do it, though. I tried, but just couldn't bring myself to do it, hey.

MF: I'm glad you seen the other side of it, man. And you seem real, real healthy. I see you on Instagram. Always running. Fucking keeping that. Yeah. Mental mental health. and physical health game fucking sharp. So it's good. Glad to see you come out the other end, bro.

DO: Yeah, yeah, thank you. That's all about training the mind though man, slowly training that mind.

MF: Also wanted to speak about I mean, you after that whole situation, your your 501 D party. Right. And the other bit that I mean, for people that don't know, under a very draconian section of the migration act. It's called section 501. Peter Dutton has has the power. He's the Minister of Home Affairs has the power to to cancel visas, but on bad character grounds. So without any judicial process. He has the power to strip citizenship and cancel visas and anyone who's been sentenced to 12 months or more in prison, that they're basically fall under this unsound character thing and get deported. Some of these men go to countries have been long term residents here in Australia. So they're going to countries that they fucking barely know. Right?

DO: It's so messed up the whole 501 laws learn more just for us, man by you know, people from Sudan and there are a couple boys has been deported back to Sudan and here back to the islands, you know, back to Europe or wherever. Fuck it’s just so messed up.

DX: How was it first communicated to you? Like how is that explained to you? Were you aware of the law or anything? Or was it just dropped on you?

DO: Because when I when when I went back to Port Phillip there was about the wasn't a lot they hadn't changed the laws yet. So they changed the laws about halfway through and then if they try to deport me my prior sentence when I was at Barwon they tried to deport me then as well but I'd actually been at that time but then year when I went back to prison support filler pathway for you they change the laws and and then yeah, you get the papers bro. So they just give you a folder and basically when you get that manila folder in prison, that's like everybody knows they like all the boys deportation papers are so pretty much everyone pretty much everyone expects that I it's always sad because then you saw people I come in a prison and I'm like, oh, did you get your papers yet? They're like, nah, nah, hopefully I'll slip through you know hopefully I'll slip through not gonna slip through bro you're gonna get a hold of them and then you got to fill it out you know? Because you know they send you the first one saying that you know you're you're up for maybe getting deported. So you got to write back and then automatically after that one you're gonna get sent you're gonna get sent one this is been cancelled. So that's 100% gonna happen so you get that one step back you've been cancelled and then you can go from there and appeal or you got to send them a whole bunch of folders you know and paperwork and letters from you know referees I guess you can help you and it's actually really sad a very because that for me I just came straight back bro because I knew I wasn't gonna beat it. But there's so many boys man that think they're gonna beat today and I just saw some do man but is very rare very, very rare. You know, but I've seen people sit at the immigration centre of their Christmas Island for like four years and still and still get sent back but that's normal bar there's so many boys that spin at Christmas Island.

MF: There was a riot there recently too. I think yeah.

DO: It is always there. There's always stuff strikes and that going down even if it's not always on the news, but it's just Yeah, but these people that's been sitting in detention for years and they still wind up coming back burned they've spent like you know 10s of 1000s sometimes hundreds of 1000s on legal fees just to get just to come back bro.

DX: Can you talk a little bit about the support system for the 501s when they get back to New Zealand?

MF: That's a great question.

DO: Oh bro Yeah, this is such a good question as well because so because they when you're coming from arm when you're getting deported from Australia to here they don't tell you much about support bro You know what I mean? And they do tell you there is support though they'll be like are you like trying to make it comfortable for you? You know what I mean? saying are you there's a possibility you might get money or you might get this you might get that but you get here and there's nothing man you know i mean there are like you got pads I think it's here which is sort of like for return for deportees and stuff. But bro they do not do much for like if I hadn't zero support here. I would have been fucked by you know and there's so many deportees that come here with no family context. And further just fucked birth.

DX: Yeah, what happened when you when you got off the plane? Like what kind of discussion. Did you have when you got to customs like were you expecting?

DO: Well, you gotta go speak to the police and stuff. Because you gotta get marched through as lover you know, so you got to be your handcuff, then you got to walk through the airport and I mean, my mental state when I was coming through was just heartbroken over I just I don't want to be here and that's how it is for most boys. And so that's on top of that, you know, you got most of the boys coming back. They've got no family. And they angry, you know, like they're living in the country that they don't want to be in. Because the prisons here are packed with Father ones bro. just packed seats. Like if I had no family here, man, it's unfortunate but if I had I had no family and hey, I probably would have ended up joining a gang bro. Just because file just wouldn't have had anything, bro. You know, let me know what I had absolutely nothing to do but join a gang just to try and make ends meet and you know.

MF: That's Yeah, it's wild to think that you know, why would why would you rehabilitate when you're serving a stint in prison when you know you're going to be fucked off back to New Zealand anyway.

DO: Yeah, you.

MF: What hope have you got when there's nothing to support you you you're going just fuck up?

DO: So yeah I feel for a lot of the boys man but that's why I'm doing shit like this spray you know doing parties and trying to put myself in a position where I can help deportees and can help other people you.

DX: What kind of advice would you be given to people in in that position?

DO: Ah man well first of all I'll let them know off the bat that they're gonna miss an uphill battle bro yeah there's no way other other than to start with that you know what I mean it's gonna be an uphill battle a lot of the times you're gonna feel like you're wearing ice skates at the same time row you know what I mean? Like yeah it's just oh man it's just we start a very you know because you got to get work you've got to get all your basics you know your text phone number your bank accounts and just so much and then coming back here with no money i mean you know because basically you only have your your withheld bro that you will get your head from prison and that's the only money you're gonna get. Because even how that works in Melbourne, you know, at least you can get your withheld and things like that when you're released from prison. I mean, the prison system here doesn't even have anything like that. Like we are released with money and stuff like that's unheard of here. You know what I mean? So yeah, there's tough man but it's definitely just getting you're trying to get your head right now and just knowing that it's gonna be tough in the meantime think it isn't because if you think it's not gonna be tough In fact, you're fucked you know what I mean? Because it's tough you know? There's no two ways around it even for me man when I first come back even though I did have the family support I mean fuck are still in a very dark place bro. Drinking every day without fail and that's how it is for most deportees bro and I come back when they come back you know, they just seemed up on the Pittsboro every day. Because I mean alcohol is so cheap here as over alcohols like water here says like there's big big big issue here with with alcohol but yeah, even for me, bro you know even though I did come back here with the mindset that I'm not going to go to prison I'm going to work you know, started working as soon as I got here but mentally brows drinking every single day. If I had a day off browse drinking in the morning, bro. So that's all I mean, but I know how much of an uphill battle it is, man, you know.

MF: So yeah, man. When I yeah, all the stuff that I've heard you say about prison? really fucking reminds me of this Norwegian this quote from this Norwegian writer I really like called Ibson and he says the strongest man in the world is the one who stands most alone and the air brother. I notice that with yours it's a lot so you got this kind of one out mentality you got all other boys and shit on your on your podcasts and stuff like that, but you're very kind of independent and kind of solo minded. Do you think that's something you learned for prisoner or as a as a kind of final question what what has all this experience taught you? What is all this fucking violence and brutality taught you man?

DO: Straight up bro. Um, you know what that really? Was that it's really the lesson that that has given me by all of that is that you've only got yourself bro. You know what I mean? At the end of the day you've only got only got you man. You know it's unfortunate bro because I see a lot of the young people that I'm trying to help and they always talking about the boys you know I mean I've got my boys back till the end and there's loyalty and this and that bro The only people that say that are the sort of people that haven't witnessed enough yet haven't been in the game long enough bro. You know what I mean? or haven't rungs up the ladder far enough to know that bro because once you're on that path and the gang path and all of that when you when you're climbing that ladder? You there is a rung on that ladder that will show you that loyalty is nothing bro You know what I mean? loyalty doesn't mean anything. And if you don't know that that's just because you haven't gotten to that rung yet for I mean like that's why I'm very independent and because that has been hard for me bro you know leaving the gang behind and doing all of this bro you know um, but that's why I'm very because I try and portray that as well. You know what I mean? The End how independent I am and because yeah, like you said, bro got the boys to jump on the podcast and stuff but at the end of the day is just me, bro. You know, just meet on the law. Slowly climb up here, man.

MF: Man, it's the same with me. Like I try to tell my cousins like When you're sitting around a table snorting coke, and you boy, you're saying, Man, I'll take a bullet for you. But when those bullets fly through the fucking window trust me, they're hitting the deck man and they're not gonna they're not gonna hit you again kasi they're not taking that bullet once those fucking shots start to fire.

DO: Yeah, definitely man. And because in prison see it all the time to man, supposedly best mates and they fall out all the time. You get that a lot in prison. You know? So that's sort of what made me realise like, you know, because even with me by when I was in the gang and the people that I was close with, now that I've chosen this path, I barely hear from them bro. You know what I mean? So that's really when we test the loyalty of your boys is when you want to do something else bro, that's when you're going to really see how close you were with them and things like that.